I’m interested in hearing from regular posters and viewers on the following points.

1. Future growth should occur from the Town center progressing north and south along Route 9, and not leap frog outwardly. Malta Comprehensive Plan, p. 42 The proposal for Malta Crossings is towards the extreme Northerly end of Neighborhood 6, with large undeveloped areas between it and the center of the overlay district. A deep ravine inhibits a pedestrian connection to the center of the district.

2. 321 Proposed housing units in Downtown Overlay District in 2025. Malta Comprehensive Plan, Table V-3. Ellsworth Commons as approved – 332 units of housing.

3. Quality green in front yards of Downtown overlay district. Malta Comprehensive Plan Figure M-4. It appears there is no green-space or landscaping scheduled in front of the CVS building.

Thanks. John

quote:

Originally posted by John Hartzell:
I’m interested in hearing from regular posters and viewers on the following points.

1. Future growth should occur from the Town center progressing north and south along Route 9, and not leap frog outwardly. Malta Comprehensive Plan, p. 42 The proposal for Malta Crossings is towards the extreme Northerly end of Neighborhood 6, with large undeveloped areas between it and the center of the overlay district. A deep ravine inhibits a pedestrian connection to the center of the district.

2. 321 Proposed housing units in Downtown Overlay District in 2025. Malta Comprehensive Plan, Table V-3. Ellsworth Commons as approved – 332 units of housing.

3. Quality green in front yards of Downtown overlay district. Malta Comprehensive Plan Figure M-4. It appears there is no green-space or landscaping scheduled in front of the CVS building.

Thanks. John

1) - Neighborhood 6 is still the downtown/town center, therefore the aspiration detailed on P. 42 is still fulfilled. The intent behind the aspirational goal listed on p. 42 was to prevent sprawl development in more rural neighborhoods, such as 3 (route 9 south), 9 (route 9 north) or 13 (Malta Avenue area) for example. Looking over the topographic map and google earth images of this ravine area, a sidewalk could easily be placed on either side of the road, or heck, lets put a pedestrian bridge over the ravine in the woods to connect Malta Crossings to the downtown. What is interesting to note is that the comprehensive plan and the linkage study conflict with each other with respect to the definition of the downtown area. The comp plan defines the downtown's northern boundary as the Cramer Road area. The linkage study defines the downtown as ending at Highpoint.

2) We should be encouraging more higher density mixed use (residential & commercial) development in the downtown. If we do not do this, Malta will continue to sprawl. I know this is a main bone of contention between the two parties (or should I say 3 to include the schism in the Malta GOP), but higher density nodes in a village-like area is one of the only acceptable planning practices today that helps combat sprawl.

3)Zero-foot setbacks for the front of a building in a downtown district is again a good, commonly acceptable planning practice. Parking lots with greenspace islands in the front yard of downtown developments encourages strip-mall type development (aka sprawl). Parking should, at very least, be on the side of the building, if not most optimally behind the building. Further, having zero setback (i.e. the building right on the sidewalk) can act in many instances as a traffic-calming measure, as the more narrow (or "tunnel") effect results in most drivers being more cautious with their speed. If you look at the definition of "Quality Green" in Appendix A of the Comprehensive Plan, it describes "quality green" as including stone walls, decorative fencing, side/rear parking, appropriate lighting, appropriate caliper trees and landscaping that compliments the proposed building. CVS has all of these. The Quality Green appendix gives no specific mention of front yard greenspace.

But these are just the views endorsed by the Democratic Party platform, myself and I believe Cynthia. Others may have a different read of the comprehensive plan and the linkage study.

I'd encourage folks to take a look at the Master Plan if they haven't already

It's found at the Town of Malta website. From there, select "Departments", "Building and Planning" and "Planning Documents". The Plan is there as a PDF file.

With respect to the "density" question, doesn't it appear that the entire projected residential build-out of the downtown overlay district has been consumed on the 8 acre Ellsworth site?

On the "quality green" issue, doesn't the Appendix B "Preferred Site Plan" suggest some green between the street and buildings?

One further thought/question. Do folks believe that most Malta residents realize that the downtown area is intended to include a "tunnel effect"?

Density - The aspirational value of 321 may not have taken into account the ability of a municipality to embrace higher-density mixed use development, but then again, the current zoning code gives no definition of what a housing unit truly is, so we in fact have no clue if all of the density is used up on this one 8 acre parcel. Because Ellsworth is one large building, does that constitute a housing unit? Does each separate living space with a separate mortgage/lease/condo agreement constitute a housing unit? Yes this is probably semantics, but we just don't know for sure since we don't have a definition. Again, perhaps the comprehensive plan should be updated to increase the aspirational number of dwelling units forecasted for the downtown. If we see a spike in population in our town, the people will have to live somewhere, and IMHO, it is better to attempt to concentrate new residents in walkable areas already served by amenities and not in other, more rural areas in the Town where water, sewer and new roads have to be installed.

With respect to Appendix B, the only thing the preferred site plan states is that "Quality Green Space be provided up front." As I indicated in my last post, pulling directly from the "Quality Green" definition in Appendix A of the Comp Plan, the CVS property includes items in its "front yard" that meet the definition of "quality green space,", including but not limited to the low-spill lighting, the facade treatments and the stone/wrought iron fence that is currently being installed. The CVS design may not be perfect, but the current Town Board that approved the PUD and Site Plan for this site must have thought it met the requirements of the zoning code, the GEIS and the comprehensive plan, otherwise, it would not have been built.

Lastly, "tunnel effect" is a general term for what is also called "traffic calming measures." Pardon my semantics. The placement of buildings right on the sidewalk has been done for hundreds and hundreds of years in Villages, Towns and Cities. With the building right on the side walk, and if on-street parking is ever allowed in Malta, the narrowing effect on the roadway causes drivers to (sometimes unknowingly) drive slower. If people drive slower through our downtown, it might be friendlier to pedestrians, increasing foot traffic to our shops. I think most Malta residents do intend for the downtown to be a safe place to walk and recreate, so I can't see why anyone would be opposed to traffic calming when used as a safety measure.

I don't think it is reasonable to try to force development to happen from the center of the downtown and then progress outward. We defined the downtown area, and now we just have to wait for development to fill it in. During the build phase, there will be gaps, but as long as we don't change the plan, it will eventually be completed. It will happen sooner than later, once the chip plant is up and running and a couple of the downtown projects come to fruition.

Planner, we do have a definition of a housing unit. If I had a sewer line outside my four-unit apartment house, I would have to pay four times the fees of a single family home. I know this, because it was actually proposed a couple of years ago. Each apartment, condo, or single family house is one housing unit.

Regarding the downtown density, I don't really have a problem with it because the downtown is really small. Even if you packed it as tightly as possible, you can still practically see from one end to the other. As I stated on another thread, I'm much more concerned with what will happen on Route 9 outside the downtown district. I think we can expect it to look like Route 9 in Halfmoon, which isn't that great.

quote:

Originally posted by Roy:
I don't think it is reasonable to try to force development to happen from the center of the downtown and then progress outward. We defined the downtown area, and now we just have to wait for development to fill it in. During the build phase, there will be gaps, but as long as we don't change the plan, it will eventually be completed. It will happen sooner than later, once the chip plant is up and running and a couple of the downtown projects come to fruition.

Planner, we do have a definition of a housing unit. If I had a sewer line outside my four-unit apartment house, I would have to pay four times the fees of a single family home. I know this, because it was actually proposed a couple of years ago. Each apartment, condo, or single family house is one housing unit.

Regarding the downtown density, I don't really have a problem with it because the downtown is really small. Even if you packed it as tightly as possible, you can still practically see from one end to the other. As I stated on another thread, I'm much more concerned with what will happen on Route 9 outside the downtown district. I think we can expect it to look like Route 9 in Halfmoon, which isn't that great.

Thanks Roy, all very good, salient points.

With respect to the "housing unit" definition, I was just playing devil's advocate. I know as well as you what one is, its just that it isn't literally defined in the Town Code, that's all.

While I know there have been some transportation studies done on the downtown district, I am very concerned that we risk creating serious traffic issues by overbuilding the area immediately around the Routes 9 and 67 roundabout. Does Route 9 in the town center really have the potential to function to support local traffic needs consistent with hi density development (slower movement with more volume)? Or is it too late to change its nature as a through traffic road, with vehicles moving more quickly to get access to I-87 and areas around town and outside of Malta?

quote:

Originally posted by John Hartzell:
While I know there have been some transportation studies done on the downtown district, I am very concerned that we risk creating serious traffic issues by overbuilding the area immediately around the Routes 9 and 67 roundabout. Does Route 9 in the town center really have the potential to function to support local traffic needs consistent with hi density development (slower movement with more volume)? Or is it too late to change its nature as a through traffic road, with vehicles moving more quickly to get access to I-87 and areas around town and outside of Malta?

Personally, I would think that the roundabout in the middle of the downtown in addition to the stop light coming out of Price Chopper and the fact that the Town Board recently (I believe) lowered the speed limit in the downtown, would prohibit vehicles from moving more quickly, even before any high density development is constructed. Further, one of the reasons why 4 roundabouts and long median were put in on Route 67 between downtown and I-87 was to make traffic flow better, but at a lower speed. Roundabouts and medians are traffic calming measures, not features that encourage speeding to I-87. Ten years ago, before LFTC was even a dream in SEDC's eye, the traffic in Malta was atrocious, particularly during the morning when the school busses clogged the traffic lights between Luther Forest and I-87. Even with high density development, I cannot imagine the traffic problems will ever be as bad as they once were.

The other benefit, albeit secondary, is that we want people staying in Malta longer, not rushing to get out of it. If people drive slower through downtown, they would be more apt to see some of the businesses that will locate in Ellsworth or Price Chopper plaza, causing them to stop, and spend money in our Town. If Paul Sausville (or Sue or Rick or whomever is elected as Supervisor) wants to avoid implementing a Town tax, they need to do everything in their power to encourage an increase in sales tax receipts. Keeping people in our downtown will help to accomplish this goal.

quote:

Originally posted by John Hartzell:
While I know there have been some transportation studies done on the downtown district, I am very concerned that we risk creating serious traffic issues by overbuilding the area immediately around the Routes 9 and 67 roundabout. Does Route 9 in the town center really have the potential to function to support local traffic needs consistent with hi density development (slower movement with more volume)? Or is it too late to change its nature as a through traffic road, with vehicles moving more quickly to get access to I-87 and areas around town and outside of Malta?

Why are you concerned?

It's not a matter of too late, it's the nature of the intersection in its vicinity to the northway. Thanks to the roundabouts' affect on traffic flow inertia and intensity, the downtown is not going to be clogged up with on/off northway traffic. If we had a light there, that would be a reasonable concern.

Slowing the traffic - calming affect - I have yet to see this when I use the roundabouts. I see people going thru them at a high rate of speed every day. And I usually have to wait a long time to even enter the roundabout at 9 and 67 from Dunning St. Just wait until you build up the downtown with those 4 story buildings and more traffic trying to go north and south on 9. Just why do you think you see traffic lights in busy towns and cities. At least you stand a chance of being able to get thru. All this is not a "dream" but a nightmare waiting to happen.

quote:

Originally posted by jp:
Slowing the traffic - calming affect - I have yet to see this when I use the roundabouts. I see people going thru them at a high rate of speed every day. And I usually have to wait a long time to even enter the roundabout at 9 and 67 from Dunning St. Just wait until you build up the downtown with those 4 story buildings and more traffic trying to go north and south on 9. Just why do you think you see traffic lights in busy towns and cities. At least you stand a chance of being able to get thru. All this is not a "dream" but a nightmare waiting to happen.

You see traffic lights in big cities because they arn't afforded the space to install roundabouts. I can't see how the roundabouts are an issue... You treat the circle as if it were a one way street, you yield to traffic in the circle and when all is clear you move. I've never seen an accident in the circles, I've never had to wait long for the circles even during morning or evening rush hour traffic. I'm begining to think you're imagining things JP.

I'm not a transportation expert, but I understand that some transportation officials do not believe Route 9 itself can effectively function as a traditional walkable downtown main street. And while I've not seen all the studies and data, I remain concerned that even though the central Malta roundabout has improved traffic flow considerably, we risk creating (or recreating) a bottleneck if we don't pay close attention to the capacity of the central roundabout and the impact that changes in traffic pattens leading into that roundabout will have. The volume of traffic coming in and out of Dunning Street has grown and is growing, and presently there are not good alternatives for residents in Luther Forest, other than to use the central roundabout. And introducing additional entrances onto Route 9 for residential and commercial developments near the center of downtown will slow traffic down even more than is already accomplished by the central roundabout. While slowing traffic down is a good thing if the road is functioning mostly for local use, Route 9 already functions, from what I can see, as a major through-traffic highway. Thanks for the thoughts folks.

quote:

Originally posted by SilentHoveringOrb:

quote:

Originally posted by jp:
Slowing the traffic - calming affect - I have yet to see this when I use the roundabouts. I see people going thru them at a high rate of speed every day. And I usually have to wait a long time to even enter the roundabout at 9 and 67 from Dunning St. Just wait until you build up the downtown with those 4 story buildings and more traffic trying to go north and south on 9. Just why do you think you see traffic lights in busy towns and cities. At least you stand a chance of being able to get thru. All this is not a "dream" but a nightmare waiting to happen.

You see traffic lights in big cities because they arn't afforded the space to install roundabouts. I can't see how the roundabouts are an issue... You treat the circle as if it were a one way street, you yield to traffic in the circle and when all is clear you move. I've never seen an accident in the circles, I've never had to wait long for the circles even during morning or evening rush hour traffic. I'm begining to think you're imagining things JP.

I AM NOT IMAGINING THIS TIE UP!!!
I've sat there at the 9/67 roundabout for almost 3 to 4 minutes waiting for a break in the north bound traffic to ease so I could slip in. There were also several cars in front of me waiting too. Also at the Northway southbound/67 roundabout the traffic was tied up behind me to the previous roundabout. DON'T TELL ME I'M IMAGINING THIS. I was there!!!

JP, I've never had the problem that you seem to have with the roundabouts... might I suggest the following:

How to actually drive in a roundabout

I think that the city of Glens Falls has a roundabout in the center of their large-scale, walkable downtown and it does not pose a problem there. Let's not overlook the fact that Route 9 is a two-lane road which should also provide even more assurances that a bottle-neck will not be created by our envisioned downtown.

(Disclaimer: I am not an authority on transportation, roadways, etc., this is simply my humble opinion)

quote:

Originally posted by Irish Law Girl:
JP, I've never had the problem that you seem to have with the roundabouts... might I suggest the following:

How to actually drive in a roundabout

I know how to get thru the roundabouts, I'm telling you it's sometimes very hard to get into them. I've been driving for 53 years, try to obey the speed limit and never have had an accident. How many of you can say that? I also travel the Northway everyday for 22 years.

quote:

Originally posted by jp:

quote:

Originally posted by Irish Law Girl:
JP, I've never had the problem that you seem to have with the roundabouts... might I suggest the following:

How to actually drive in a roundabout

I know how to get thru the roundabouts, I'm telling you it's sometimes very hard to get into them. I've been driving for 53 years, try to obey the speed limit and never have had an accident. How many of you can say that? I also travel the Northway everyday for 22 years.

Well there's your problem, this is New York JP, you've gotta be a little agressive! :-)

Very good point irishlawgirl, though km will think I am biased and smitten.......

We must also not forget the proposed ring road that is detailed in the linkage study. The road that is proposed to go around the downtown in 4 separate segments; Parade Ground, Malta Commons, Price Chopper Plaza and Church-CVS (to be constructed)...this will allow local Malta residents, mainly those of us in Luther forest, to bypass the Route 9 "thoroughfare" at the main roundabout, causing a decrease in traffic congestion and waiting times at said central roundabout. I think the ring road will ameliorate most concerns about roundabout traffic and access to the high-density downtown.......

I've seen the concept of the "ring road" mentioned in planning documents, but it's not clear to me that it will be constructed in a manner that will allow large volumes of traffic to avoid the central roundabout. Folks already use the Malta Commons and Hemphill Road segments as it is, and we are still experiencing periods of heavy traffic at the roundabout. And the width of the CVS entrance onto Route 9 at the light across from Shops of Malta does not look to me like it will support a large flow of traffic. For instance, coming out from that new entrance onto Route 9, it appears there is room for only one car or perhaps two at a time in the left turn lane. And it remains to be seen when and whether the fourth leg of the loop, connecting back out to Route 67 will be built and what its capacity will be. I think it's important to still follow through with the concept of this ring road, but I'm not yet convinced it is the solution to the potential traffic congestion that we face if we over-develop the areas close in to the central roundabout.

The ring road will not likely serve as an alternate to traveling on Route 9, but really just serve to diffuse the number of vehicles at the central roundabout. A good analogy is a stream with a floodplain. If you dig other stream or backflow channels adjacent to the floodplain, you are going to create flood capacity for the floodplain, and ease the strain on the central stream. I agree that it may not be the end-all solution to traffic congestion at the central roundabout, but it's a step in the right direction.

Again, as most longtime residents of the Town on this board can attest, we were not all that developed 10 years ago, and we had some of the worst traffic problems in the County. Today, even with more development in our downtown, things are much better with respect to traffic. Even with the development of Ellsworth, I cannot see traffic being as bad as it was 10 or so years back.